Something About The Beatles

132: John and Paul – Truth and Beauty

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Returning as a SATB guest is Jeff Martin, whom you will remember from 122 – The Simpsons episode. In addition to his writing on that show as well as Late Night with David Letterman beginning in the 1980s, he is also a musician and therefore speaks the language of The Beatles specifically, as well as creativity generally.

Our conversation centered on the Lennon-McCartney partnership and the way that their unique combination of talents and temperaments created something far bigger than the sum of its parts.
More on Jeff’s career here. (The article he referenced – The Power of Two by Joshua Wolf Shenk – was published in The Atlantic in July 2014 and can be found here.)

Comments

31 responses to “132: John and Paul – Truth and Beauty”

  1. Erin

    Thank you for mentioning “Two of Us” being a song that sounds – REALLY – like Paul singing about John. I always thought that and said that in groups of friends, and I’m always corrected that “No, it’s about Linda.” But is it really?

    Anyway, thank you. I appreciate that. I also still think “Hey Jude” has some messages to John, too. But I didn’t write either of them, of course… 🙂

    Reply
    1. Lillian

      I agree with you Erin, the lyrics fit John and Paul. Remember, the hitch hiking they did as teenagers.

      I think Paul AND John had their PR meanings for songs, the real meanings were personal and not for the public. Like how I think Blackbird is about John. Paul had his PR meaning when it was far more personal than that.
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennon_(name)

      Reply
      1. Gretchen Nelson

        I agree 100%. Two of Us in NOT about Linda. NO WAY. My God,listen to the words”You and I have memories,longer than the road that stretches out ahead” Oh yeah,thst’s about Linda,uh huh.????????

        Reply
    2. Steve

      On the same theme, there is no doubt that Jealous Guy is a message to Paul not Yoko. Perhaps he recorded How do you Sleep to mask this.

      Reply
  2. Lee Downes

    I was a disappointed in this episode. For me, it was a rehash of a thousand (s) conversations I have had throughout my life as a Beatle fan (I was about 5 when I first heard She Loves You). Except for a couple of facts I hadn’t heard before, it seemed like you were stating the bleeding obvious.

    Reply
  3. Paul T

    Very nice show, thank you guys. Never heard the semi-isolated mistake by Paul in IIF before.

    Reply
  4. Erick King

    Nice show, I still can’t believe the BOTCH job of If I Fell that you played at the end of the show. Obviously from the last A Hard days night blu ray release. Someone thought fixing Paul’s cracked harmony with this? Yes it needed repair but what was that? I can’t even watch that release because of that. Totally ruins the movie! Thanks Martin Lewis

    Reply
  5. Tony D

    If I fell is a song that I didn’t understand as a teenager but after college adult life when I had tumultuous relationships with women I completely get what John is singing about. It’s complex but you can hear the angst and the pain there. I relate to that because I experienced the same emotions of betrayal

    Reply
  6. Casey L

    Thanks Robert; really enjoyed the episode. You and Jeff have a nice chemistry and the conversation was a fun listen. Keep up the good work!

    Reply
  7. Kim

    Thoroughly enjoyed this. John and Paul. Paul and John. When we think we know everything about them, there’s more to discover if you really dig deep. I was glad you brought up the strangeness of them picking a woman partner to marry at the same time, which seemed like reactionary responses to each other like, “I’m replacing you with her”. John and Paul’s relationship was that complex. Like Linda said in an interview in the 90’s , “Their relationship went deeper than any of us will ever know.”

    I find it odd that all The Beatles films and documentaries focus on everything else except the John-Paul dynamic in depth? Why is that? We hear the same stories and analysis over and over again, the superficial stuff (Paul was light, John was dark blah blah blah), but it never goes further than that, To me, The Beatles magic was not only the four guys as a balanced square, but the two sides of the same coin that was John and Paul.

    Reply
  8. Tony aka Pismotality

    Enjoyed this very much. I recall the first time I became keenly aware of the difference in Lennon and McCartney’s singing style: the moment in the Let It Be film when they start on Rip It Up, and it is as you both said: there seems to be more display about McCartney’s voice but somehow you just believe in Lennon: I know he said he was “of the universe” but “of the earth” seems the more aposite phrase – and not just because his voice is lower.

    The home demo attempts at If I Fell on the Alf Bicknell tapes are also worthy of remark: admitted the fi is not hi but he really sounds wounded and fragile.

    I don’t recall hearing that version of Hey Jude before – it sounded like it had been subtly speed corrected or something.

    Reply
    1. Keith Moore

      Hey Jude is one of those things they do on Youtube they technically change the key from major to minor which creates a whole other mood. There are some clever people out there but nothing to do with The Beatles.

      Reply
  9. Kim

    I just wanted to add something to my comment above. I just remembered the tv film Two Of Us which delved deeply into the John-Paul relationship which was so refreshing! Highly recommend it. I would also seek out in the Internet, the interview with the screenwriter on why he wrote the screenplay and his thoughts on John and Paul an the importance on their personal relationship.

    Reply
  10. Cajun Queen

    re: the question “Paul or John?”, I think it’s possible (at least for me!) to have it both ways. We can recognize that it was a unique symbiotic relationship, each contributing something to the chemistry of the greater whole, AND that we can also hold at the same time an individual preference for the smoother songs of PM or the edgier songs of JL.

    haha, I guess I’m stating the obvious here. 🙂

    Great show.

    Reply
  11. Tony Moore

    Wow – another great episode – great guest, great chemistry – but this When I Get Home hatred is really getting out of hand. Even Ian MacDonald–whom I hate more than you hate When I Get Home for all his tonedeaf George-dissing (among many other things)–even Ian MacDonald likes the tune.

    Aside from the general undefined disdain, your main criticism seems to be about the use of “whoa oh oh I”. I mean, do you also hate “sha la la la la” or the “na na na-na-na-na” of Hey Jude? (To say nothing of uses of “whoa” interjections in an untold number of classics by the Beatles models and contemporaries). But regardless of that, the innovative music of When I Get Home would make me love it even if I shared your venom for the scat-sung opening.

    Reply
    1. Us

      When did “When I Get Home” come up in this episode?

      Reply
  12. The Applesauce Project

    “I Don’t Want To Spoil The Party” has John taking the high harmonies in the verses and Paul taking the low harmonies. Then they switch in the bridge. There’s another example of them doing this, but I can’t remember off the top of my head which tune. Might be one of the BBC cover tracks.

    Reply
    1. Us

      John is harmonizing with himself on the verses, not Paul.

      Reply
      1. Andrew Q

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul4yY2JGWQk

        lower voice sounds like Paul, especially pronunciation of “she’s”

        Reply
  13. Robin Hart

    This was a great one. One that mines into that magical relationship that often doesn’t actually get discussed.

    Reply
  14. Amy

    Hi guys, I really liked this episode! I have a very soft spot for the John and Paul relationship. I really do think those guys had a great love for each other, and I also find it touching that even post-breakup (once the dust settled) they retained their affection and admiration for one another. I’m glad that they warmed back up to each other as much as they did, and had John lived my feeling is they would have gotten even closer.

    Rarely is their partnership actually taken apart in fan circles or in discussions. While I feel like this conversation just began to scratch the surface, I understand why. You’d need a days-long forum with a multi-member panel of fans, and you’d still be left with much to discuss! I imagine historians and philosophers alike will be grappling with the John and Paul magic for centuries to come! With the amount of time you guys had, you managed to cover some very important things.

    Robert, I wanted to make a point about “bossy Paul” in the late 60’s: I think we all sometimes forget just how young these guys were! In my 20’s I certainly wasn’t the most tactful at all times, and I was just an ordinary person! Imagine being that age, under tremendous pressure, having endured the tragedy of losing the manager who had served as the grounding agent and biggest supporter and feeling entirely bereft. They were also under the influence of various substances, and that makes people act funky. Paul had to be difficult to deal with, sure, but it’s always forgotten that the other three could also be “difficult” personalities as well.

    My point is that none of them were ever saints. I think if we’re to fairly analyze this, or any, period in their career together, we need to look with balance at how all four of them contributed to that late-period dynamic. Pointing the finger at Paul for his bossy period and assigning him blame without looking at how the others may have triggered that type of behavior, or how they reacted, in my opinion is more of the same “partisan” Beatles fan rhetoric, IMO. Plus, imagine how awful “Hey Jude” may have been with an answering guitar riff for each line. ????

    Anyway, great episode! I really enjoyed it! ???? You and Jeff have great chemistry!

    Reply
  15. Amy

    P.S. I forgot to mention the comment about how great it would have been had the Beatles had a chance to take a break. It’s easy to forget that the way the recording industry was structured at the time didn’t allow bands to disband temporarily. I think the reason we see bands taking breaks now is a product of the lessons the industry learned from the Beatles. Saying they should have done a thing that they simply weren’t structurally allowed to do at that time isn’t entirely fair. I get what you’re trying to say, however, and agree with the sentiment. I wish record companies back then would have given artists more flexibility so they could take longer breaks and come back refreshed and eager to collaborate again, rather than tiring of each other.

    Reply
    1. James Hamilton

      The argument against the ‘take a break’ thesis is that once Yoko comes into the picture, the Beatles are on borrowed time so that we should be grateful that Paul got so much out of the group in such a short space of time (about February 1968 to the summer of 1969).

      Reply
  16. Michael Evangeline

    Hi Robert, I think this episode sits among the greatest of your podcasts. The truth and beauty thesis is profound and I think, well founded- there is a book in this!

    John and Paul shared a powerful loss as humans: the death of their mothers in their teens. This is an insurmountable agony- by singing together, screaming together and succeeding together they were able to “cope” and “share” the deep grief and loss within them.

    The great chef, Marco Pierre White says you have to make your dream come true before you can truly know if you really want the dream to exist or continue. Perhaps, John reached a similar conclusion.

    The Beatles are/were a force that defied/defies conformity.

    Reply
  17. Kristen

    Great listen — thanks to you both! I can now re-appreciate Paul’s vocals in Hey Jude. Thank you for looking at the good and bad.

    I think the book quoted about “girls” was maybe Dreaming the Beatles by Rob Sheffield, and not Powers of Two?

    As far as Paul’s inability to see that the group should take a break and that he should back off, I think most published or mainstream discussions I’ve seen about the Beatles in this period want to spend more time speaking about how bossy Paul was, without taking into account the place he was in emotionally, which was very reportedly not good and was reckless and drunken. Not only had his relationship with Jane ended, but there was the emotional devastation at the loss of closeness with John (however you want to characterize their relationship, it was close until after India). He takes refuge in music so he closed himself off and went to work. Unfortunately he didn’t let his band members know how badly off he was, and their interpersonal relationships suffered as a result. So yeah, the fact that they accomplished more amazing music is a gift.

    Reply
  18. wc

    “honest communication” “John bringing the truth”?

    Lennon was anything but honest with his writing as a Beatle. His honesty came out when he left the Beatles and not prior.

    He even acknowledged this…

    “Sun King” “That’s a piece of garbage I had around,” he said in 1980.

    “Mean Mr. Mustard” He described it as “a bit of crap that I wrote in India.”

    “Dig A Pony” “It was literally a nonsense song,” he said in 1980, going on to dismiss it as “another piece of garbage.”

    “It’s Only Love” “That’s the one song I really hate of mine,” he told Hit Parader in 1972. “Terrible lyric.”

    Reply
  19. Rachel

    Whoever the guest is clearly favors Paul. So much stereotyping of John, putting down his melody writing, nothing but angst, etc. etc. And the host is just, “Yeah, uh huh…” Dispappointing. Was expecting a more balanced podcast.

    Reply
  20. Rachel

    *Disappointing. Strawberry Fields a one-note melody? Up yours, loser.

    Reply
  21. Rachel

    Give me John’s unique compositions and singing over Paul’s roaring ’20s pastiche and genre music any day. Thought this was going to be a celebration of John AND Paul, not just Paul. What does Some Time in NYC have to do with this conversation? Gratuitous swipe at John. JFC, is there any trait or talent in which John wasn’t inferior to Paul in your view? Even his wit is called into question. Funny how Paul stopped writing standards when he and John parted company, whereas John’s solo songs are covered more than the songs he wrote as a Beatle! He may have been better off without Paul. Anyone know of a Beatles podcast that doesn’t belittle John’s talents as a songwriter? Thanks in advance.

    Reply
  22. Rachel

    “The closest John came to writing a standard while with the Beatles was In My Life. But Paul claimed the melody so, John didn’t write anything worth remembering.” “Yeah, it has McCartney’s musical fingerprints.” “McCartney is right about everything.”

    https://www.npr.org/2018/08/11/637468053/a-songwriting-mystery-solved-math-proves-john-lennon-wrote-in-my-life

    Reply
  23. Rachel

    You’re a jackass for not posting any of my comments, most of them respectful. Way to perpetuate the McCartneyganda. You do the Beatles a great service.

    Reply

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