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Commemorating the 50th anniversary of the unleashing of the “Pre-Fab Four” on an unsuspecting public, Robert and Richard examine the ties, parallels and overlapping phenomenon between the two acts. Songs include “Paperback Believer” and “Daydream Believer.”
You know, there’s no doubt the Beatles influenced the Monkees but the beginning of this episode seems to ignore the fact that there was actually a music scene in America in the 60s that coincided with the Beatles. So while the Beatles did influence the project I’m guessing that that scene also had an influence on the creators and stars and thus the content of the show and the music. It was the energy, perhaps brought to the shores by the Beatles, that was happening in America at the time. That’s very noticeable in both the show and the music. I think people get so stuck on this “Beatle-wannabe” label that they can’t see past that.
The Monkees have always gotten dissed a lot as the Fabricated Four but the both the TV show and the Monkees themselves show an incredible amount of talent and actually owe more to American inspiration than the Beatles. Two actors honing musical skills, two musicians honing acting skills. This really wasn’t them imitating the Beatles (because if they were imitating the Beatles they’d be portraying four rock stars). They were portraying what so many young people were at the time: Four young guys trying to make it big. (And it was one of the first shows that showed young adults living on their own). It was a fresh sort of show for the time on American TV. When it comes to the comedy, the Monkees owe more to the Marx Brothers than to the Beatles despite some Hard Day’s Night inspiration. They were uniquely American.
And when they did start to take control of their music…were they that different than how the Beatles (or any group) started out? What might have been had the Monkee-machine with it’s pushing and pulling of so many forced that had been created around them not fallen in on them. Perhaps they would have grown just as the Beatles had to grow in Hamburg. The big difference is that the Beatles were allowed to grow. The Monkees weren’t because they were never taken seriously.
So when you consider that these four guys got together, filmed a pretty funny show during the day, made music at night, became Beatle-like famous practically overnight (thanks in large part to the help of the NBC tv publicity), toured across the country, eventually took hold of their musical careers and began to put out some really good music on their own in the span of a few years; that’s pretty impressive.
I completely agree with Laura L Enright. The Monkees are STILL putting out terrific music! Have you heard their new CD “Goodtimes”? It’s fabulous! Plus I just saw them in concert. They sang, danced, played various instruments for over 2 hours and they were funny! keep in mind Micky and Peter are 71 and 74 respectively!!! There are 20 year olds that can’t do that! I have always loved them but I even have more love and respect for them now. And why aren’t they in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame??
The mash-ups were quite annoying.
I listened to a recent interview with Mike Nesmith and he said that The Monkees did not outsell the Beatles and Rolling Stones in 1967. He stated that he made that statement up during a interview just to see how far the lie would go. He said that he was amazed to see that it still gets repeated to this day as a fact. He was pretty amused about it.
Nez might have said that but it doesn’t make him wrong.
First, the Stones released Between The Buttons, which peaked at #2, briefly; Flowers, a compilation that peaked at #3, and then Their Satanic Majesties Request, which arrived late in the year (December 8), peaked at #2, then faded quickly. They “only” scored one #1 US single that year – “Ruby Tuesday” – for one week only.
The Beatles issued two US albums: Sgt. Pepper was #1 for 15 weeks, while Magical Mystery Tour – also released late in the year – had an 8-week chart-topping run that didn’t begin until January 1968. The Beatles’ US single output – “Penny Lane”/”Strawberry Fields Forever” – “All You Need Is Love”/”Baby You’re A Rich Man” and “Hello Goodbye”/”I Am The Walrus” EACH had one week at #1 that year.
In comparison, The Monkees’ juggernaut was unstoppable. Though two of the year’s three singles stopped short of #1 (“A Little Bit Me, A Little Bit You” and “Pleasant Valley Sunday” peaked at #s 2 and 3 respectively), 1966’s “I’m A Believer” had a seven-week run at the top and was the year’s biggest selling single, while “Daydream Believer” had a four week run, for a combined ten weeks atop the US charts for 1967.
Albums did even better: The Monkees, More of The Monkees, Headquarters and Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn and Jones, Ltd combined held the top US slot for 29 weeks in 1967. Compare that to the Beatles’ 15 for Pepper. (In fact, The Monkees STILL hold the record for having four albums atop the Billboard LP chart in a single year – not even the Beatles beat them.)
Of course, all of this is talking US charts and sales; I don’t have easy access to what they were selling around the world, but considering the UK and Japan alone, you know it was a ton.
So yes, while Nez might have thought he was being specious, the data supports that claim, which has been made elsewhere.
It’s very difficult to wrap my head around this episode. There was a period in my youth, for about two weeks while The Monkees show was on TV, when I couldn’t decide which band I liked better. While your show is, as usual, very well-researched and interesting, hearing the Monkees’ music again makes me realize how infective and hypnotizing the show must have been to a young public. Their music doesn’t stand up at all to the Beatles’ music. My god, they’re horrible. Not to mention how idiotic the show was. The scene in The Wrecking Crew where the band was surprised they weren’t going to play on their album was priceless. BTW, I tried watching Head a few weeks ago. I don’t think there are enough drugs to make it watchable. Please get back on track with the Beatles. Richard was VERY kind during this episode. Sorry, guys.
In one of the episodes of the Monkeeys TV series one of them whistle Strawberry Fields Forever.
Great Show guys!
Love the Monkees and so did the Beatles! Why not!
Keep up the good work guys!
I realize that the individual Monkees had talent, but it is hard to feel sorry for them with regard to their lack of input to the music and recordings. The only reason they existed was to be television characters. It’s a miracle that any good music came out of the project at all! Kudos to them for working to get their stuff on the records, though.
Hi,
First of all, thank you for all your hard work that must go into every podcast. What makes it even more enjoyable to listen to, is the fact you are both in the same booth. Some podcasts have people phone in, have delays, difference in sound levels. Those are very hard to follow.
Although I can understand you want to draw comparisons between The Beatles and The Monkees, but I realized there was a band that might have even more similarities with the Beatles and that was The Turtels. In a documentary about The Turtles Flo and Eddie committed they were Beatles copycats. For starters their name ends with TELS, it is a animal-name. But it doesn’t end there. When they scored their first big hit, they were excited not because they had a hit, but now, The Beatles would hear their music. They copied their clothes, their mustaches, took their drugs, bought their instruments, created their Battle Of The Band-format, in vain of Sgt. Pepper-concept, started their own publishing company, their wives opened boutiques and so forth.
Anyway, looking forward to the next show. Hopefully a follow-up on the second guessing The Beatles, which I enjoyed a lot. Could you also re-do the Get Back album?
A fan from The Netherlands
I think you could do an easier mash-up with “Last Train To Clarksville” and the La’s song “Feelin’.” The latter is almost a chord-for-chord, beat-for-beat rewrite.
In regard to pronunciation of Moog – it is not pronounced “MOG” but rather like “VOGUE” with an M
i.e. “Mogue”
Gents – quite enjoyed this episode as it gave me new insight into the Monkees, in context and comparison to the Fabs. Probably going to explore their catalog more. The revelation that Run-DMC’s “Mary Mary” was based on a Monkees song was quite surprising.
What’s the Helter Skelter mashup you played at the end?
Thank you for doing this episode!! The Monkees, despite having gone through major critical reassessment over the years, still deserve more, as they completely transcended their “brand” to become a true musical force. The school of thought that the Monkees were in some sense a proto-punk group, at least in terms of their attitude towards “selling out” and maintaining some modicum of artistic integrity does have a ring of truth. Sticking it to Don Kirschner and demanding their music and albums be created on their terms is indeed pretty commendable. Don’t get me wrong, The Beatles will always and forever be my number one, but The Monkees should really have their place among the classics.
And as far as Head is concerned, it might be my favorite Pop movie of all time. Uneven and fractured though it may be, it remains an infinitely fascinating time capsule and pop culture deconstruction. And, I’m just going to say it… I find it far more provocative and thought provoking than any of the Beatles’ films (sorry, just my opinion!). And, I too would level the soundtrack with Magical Mystery Tour, and possibly edge it out, on the grounds that I’ve heard MMT so so so many millions of times, that Head is a refreshing change.
Anyway, enough gushing. I really enjoyed the episode, even with Richard getting his digs in! 🙂
Great episode fellas! Rodriguez, you’re on target again. As much as people want to fight it The Monkees belong in the same echelon as Dylan, Beach Boys, Beatles, Stones, Floyd, Doors, Dead, Creedence, and Zeppelin. Simple as that. The problem is that many of their great songs later in their career were not put out (especially Peter Tork) or as heavly promoted. Many, many unreleased gems that didn’t get heard until the 80’s or 90’s. #InductTheMonkees
I stumbled upon this podcast by accident, but what a great discovery! A fantastic episode this was and despite Richard’s obvious disdain of The Monkees, you cannot argue over the fact that they became a great group in their own right – Headquarters is an album worthy of anyone from the mid-late 1960s, while the follow-up was pretty decent too. Mike and Peter really were talented musicians and songsmiths, while Micky’s accomplishments on the drums were amazing considering how quick he had got learn to play them. Always thought Davy’s voice was the weak link – apart from on Star Collector and Valleri – and Peter should have had more lead vocals as I liked his vocals, the few rare ones he had (his couple of Head were excellent).
And am I the only Monkees fan who cannot stand Daydream Believer? Always detested that song and is played far too often on the radio.
Now, to catch up on the rest of these terrific podcasts.
A great episode but i’m definitely on the Buskin side of this debate!If nothing else it shows the difference to the UK perspective of the Beatles to the American!Nesmith a better lyricist then McCartney ?? Are you sure ?Head a better soundtrack than Magical Mystery Tour?I was a big fan of The Monkees TV show as a kid and like most kids believed they were a real band!But now in retrospect I see it for what it was which was a very good comedy family show! I am not saying that individual Monkees were not musically adept but in terms of a musical legacy they are not even on the radar!With the Beatles back catalogue you can hear an incredible output of work that in terms of progression is still unbeatable (The closest being David Bowie)I mean even most of the Monkees hits were written by professional songwriters played by session men! A great period tho ! Another thing I’m glad i missed out on as a kid is exposure to that awful Beatles Cartoon thing they had in America.We were very fortunate to have had The Beatles form,grow and break first here in the UK ! The Americans bless them found them after this and as such have a totally different perspective on them ! Just my opinion!
Man the Circle Sky/Pepper mashup is terrible. The Paperback Believer one’s been a fav for a while.
Great show guys. I spent a small fortune on the new Monkees Blu-ray box set and enjoy it very much. However as much as I like the music in “Head”, it does not compare as a film or an album to “MMT”-not even close. “As We Go Along” is a lost classic but as you stated Bob and Bert were done with the Monkees by that point and let them die a slow death. I also enjoy the 2 post Tork 1969 Monkees albums very much. I also enjoy the new “Good Times” album and the nice 3 CD set “The Monkees 50” that just came out. 2016 has been a banner year for Monkees product!
Robert probably pitched this show 6 times to no avail until the one day Richard wasn’t able to pick up some dry cleaning. Robert said he’d hand over the hangers under one condition….
The Monkees were an unique phenomenon unto themselves. But they seemed to be put in a bad position from the start. In today’s context, I don’t believe they were very influential as a band. Boyce and Hart helped them craft some great songs, they had strong talent, charisma and a great singer in Mickey Dolenz, collectively, they were better actors than The Beatles. But Robert seems to overstate the case. They are a second-tier band in the history of rock. There are intersections between their lives and the Beatles worth mentioning but they strike me more and more as a footnote.
+ Congratulations, gentlemen (“Us”), on your efforts. I have now listened to all of the episodes from #1 through this #61 — listening to roughly one per day for two months — so you obviously did something right to hold my attention! I hope to catch up to the present (mid-August) episode by the end of 2017. The reason I am so enthusiastic about this is as follows … I was born in 1951 in the city that is now the home of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Back in 1963, Cleveland had some great “pop music” radio stations. Perhaps due to having overseas contacts, the DJs were “prematurely” (by U.S. standards) aware of the tremendous talents beginning to bud in England in 1962 and 1963, and they were playing the Beatles’ (and others’) records many months before they were available to the public in the U.S.. [They must have had British discs flown in from overseas. I can even recall hearing, early in 1964, “Sie liebt dich” (“She Loves You”) and “Komm gib mir deine Hand” (“I Want to Hold Your Hand”), the first of which was on no U.S. album until 1978.] By the end of 1964, I had concluded that the “Fab Four” were probably among the greatest performers and songwriters of all time — and I have never changed that opinion, even though, over the ensuing 55 years, I have intensely studied American popular music going back to the mid-1920s.
Although I have not posted a comment up to now, I decided that I should do so today, so that listeners would not be misled by something stated between 46:00 and 47:00. Robert begins by praising Mike Nesmith’s ability as a lyricist — and then his skill as a singing soloist. Next, Richard evokes from Robert his opinion that Mike “crafts words better than Paul” McCartney. Robert immediately — without any clarification — plays Mike’s rendition of the song, “Until It’s Time For You To Go.” The context of the conversation leaves the unmistakable implication that Robert is using this song as an example of Mike’s poetic skills (and his singing skills too) … BUT … Mike was neither the songwriter nor the lyricist of “Until It’s Time For You To Go.” It was written in 1965 (coincidentally the year that “Michael Blessing” debuted), but the song was wholly the work of a Canadian American Indian woman, Buffy Sainte-Marie, whose own rendition of the song was superb. I have listened to very few of the songs that Mike Nesmith has written [see http://www.morethanweimagine.com/%5D, but of those that I have heard, my favorite is “Different Drum,” which was so beautifully sung in 1967 by a then-unknown soprano (Linda Ronstadt) who was a member of a group called the Stone Poneys.
One last thing: As a teenager, I enjoyed watching the Monkees’ TV show and listening to their hits. My two favorite songs of theirs are “Valleri” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1MovVzzSQk — written by Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart) and “Pleasant Valley Sunday” (by Gerry Goffin and Carole King).
[PS to “Us”: If you wish to respond or to contact me for any other reason, please use my e-mail address, as I am likely to forget to check here for a reply.]
Hi JF;
Thanks for the comments. Yes, I am well aware of the origins of that particular Michael Blessing recording; without listening back to that particular episode from over a year ago, I’m pretty certain I was using that recording to illustrate his singing, pre-Monkees. I am a huge Nesmith fan, and to the extent that one can quantify art and successfully compare apples to oranges, the point I was going for was that he was a more thoughtful lyricist than Paul, who steered clear (evidently) at laboring over meaning. Nez wrote some lyrics originally as poetry before setting them to music, so his approach was definitely very different. And I’m quite certain that he would be the first to praise Macca for his wonderfully inventive musicality.
Hello, Robert. You wrote (in reply to me, and speaking of the song, “Until It’s Time For You To Go”):
“Yes, I am well aware of the origins of that particular Michael Blessing recording; without listening back to that particular episode from over a year ago, I’m pretty certain I was using that recording to illustrate his singing, pre-Monkees.”
Yes, as I listened to the episode, I realized that such was probably the reason you had chosen to play that song: to illustrate Mike Nesmith’s singing skills. The problem, as I explained last time, however, was that Richard jumped in — before you could play the song — and he turned the subject briefly to your opinion of Mike’s skill at writing lyrics. You then played the song without first mentioning that you were doing so ONLY to show Mike’s singing skill, NOT that he had written the lyrics. That is why I stated this:
“I decided that I should [post my first comment] today, so that listeners would not be misled by something stated between 46:00 and 47:00. … The context of the conversation leaves the unmistakable implication that Robert is using this song as an example of Mike’s poetic skills …”.
In other words, Robert, I was only trying to keep other listeners from being accidentally misled; I was not stating that you had been factually wrong and in need of correction.
I mentioned the timing of the problem (between 46:00 and 47:00), hoping that you would listen to that one minute of the episode, thereby realizing that I was right (about listeners potentially being led to think that Mike had written the lyrics of that song). I’m sad that you didn’t choose to take time to listen to that one minute. If you had done so, your reply to me would, I trust, have been worded differently; it even would have included an apology to other listeners, if you are the gracious man you have seemed to me to be (up to now).
There is no need for you to reply (or even post this message).
Hi guys,
Thanks for this really good conversation about the Monkees
who I fell for when I was 12 and have rediscovered them and dived much more into their music since as well the show which I laugh out loud to!
One small correction, “Daydream Believer” hit No 1 on. US
Billboard chart in 1967 and stayed there for five weeks.
Cheers!
Marie
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